Midlife Upgrades: Your Career’s Changing—Should Your Relationship, Too? with Katie Rössler

In this episode of the Changeology podcast, I’m joined by therapist, author, and relationship coach Katie Rössler, whose work focuses on hidden grief, emotional intelligence, and building strong, self-aware relationships.

Katie brings a fresh perspective to what really happens behind the scenes when we go through big life transitions—like career shifts, perimenopause, parenting aging parents, or simply outgrowing old versions of ourselves. She works with individuals, couples, and companies to teach the real-world skills most of us never learned growing up: how to handle change and stay connected in the process.

This conversation is for you if you’ve ever asked: “Why does it feel like everything is shifting—including my relationships?” Katie helps us unpack what’s really happening when we start to feel stuck, distant, or unsure in our partnerships—and how to use those moments as opportunities to grow.

Whether you're navigating a major life transition or just starting to feel the itch for something different, this episode will help you reflect, reassess, and reconnect—with yourself and the people who matter most.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

🌟 Why questioning your relationship during a transition isn’t a red flag—it’s a growth signal

🌟 The “plant in the closet” metaphor that explains how relationships get neglected (and how to revive them)

🌟 How to handle grief that comes with change—even when it’s not tied to loss in the traditional sense

🌟 The essential communication and self-awareness skills every couple needs—but most of us were never taught

Connect with Katie:

www.katierossler.com/18-questions
https://www.instagram.com/katie.rossler/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katierossler/
www.katierossler.com

The REAL Change Kickstart is a 45-day 1:1 coaching intensive designed to help you:

• Identify the behaviors keeping you stuck
• Unlearn what is no longer serving you
• Create new patterns that align with what you truly want

Click here to get started.

Interested in longer-term support for making a significant change? You can apply to work with Meg here.

Want to learn more about the art, science, philosophy, and psychology of making significant life changes? Sign up HERE for my weekly newsletter and have the Changeology podcast delivered straight into your inbox!

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Transcript

Katie Rössler

@0:00 - Meg Trucano 

Welcome to the Changeology Podcast. Today I'm joined by Katie Rossler, a licensed therapist, and coach specializing in hidden grief, burnout, communication, emotional intelligence.

She empowers high achievers to craft visionary lives and has authored not one but two books, the new face of grief and king birth to motherhood.

Katie also works with major companies on workplace wellness and hosts the Relationship Reset Podcast. So today in our conversation, we'll explore how change and transition can impact relationships, from career shifts to perimenopause and aging parents, and everything in between.

So welcome to the Changeology Podcast, Katie.

@0:50 - Katie Rössler

Hi Meg, thank you so much for having me.

@0:52 - Meg Trucano 

It's my pleasure. So I'm so excited to get a chance to talk to you because relationships and the quality of our...

relationships is such an important consideration when people are experiencing some kind of big change in their life, right?

@1:08 - Katie Rössler

Totally, yes.

@1:10 - Meg Trucano 

And so I know my clients and certainly listeners of this podcast are wanting to enact some kind of big life change.

And when life changes, our relationships often follow suit. And many people kind of wonder if their partner is going to grow with them.

Or if these transitions are going to create a set of new challenges, like, you know, is this the right person for this part of, you know, transition and part of my life, you know, difficult but necessary conversations need to be had a lot of the time.

So one of the biggest kind of unspoken fears about making a big change is how is this going to affect my relationship.

can you speak to, you know, is this sort of a, how normal is it to question your relationship when you're undergoing a major transition?

@2:04 - Katie Rössler

Oh, and I think it's really, really normal for us to, when we're in a place of change in our lives in general, whether it be a change in career, moving, you know, change within ourselves, identity, whatever it might be, that we also look at the core relationship we're in.

And say, am I happy in this? Is this what I want? Is this, you know, is this still satisfying the needs that I have?

@2:32 - Meg Trucano 

Because as we change, our needs change.

@2:36 - Katie Rössler

And we often don't think about that. We'll think about that with our career, right? like, oh, it's just not meeting my needs.

And I like, I want more challenge. I want to go on a different route or whatever. But in our relationship, it's always growing and evolving too.

And I tend to explain that our relationship has its own identity. like, I come with my identity, my partner comes with their identity, and then it's

like a Venn diagram, so you have that middle section that comes together and that's its own identity. And it is evolving and growing all the time, but we often treat it in the beginning of our relationship like this beautiful plant where we've planted the seeds and it's growing and it's wonderful and it hits a certain point where we're like, okay, we've committed each other and we're settled and now work is getting stressful.

Oh, we're gonna have kids and like, oh, we're gonna die home and all these things. And it's like we put that plant in a dark room and shut the door and then just leave it there.

So naturally, there's a point where we start to go, well, I've changed and this plant does not look good anymore.

And like, am I happy? I want to put the work in to fix this? And many get into a place, especially when we're like perimenopause menopause time in our lives.

So we're talking late 30s to early mid 50s, where especially women say is this really what I want men do as well, but men tend to do career first.

And I think women since we're more relational, we do start to look at that and go like, I feel like this is draining my battery.

@4:15 - Meg Trucano 

This is not making me happy.

@4:17 - Katie Rössler

And so we start to reassess. So it's absolutely normal to go through faces where we ask, am I happy?

this do I, you know, stay or go? Is this what I want? And it isn't a sign that there's failure.

It isn't a sign that there's no hope. In fact, I often tell individuals who come to me going like I'm questioning my relationship, I'm like, good.

Because this is the pivotal moment of growth. This is the time where you say, yeah, I'm putting on my tennis shoes, I'm going to go to start running, right?

I'm going to do the work. I'm going to do the thing. But now I need to know what that thing is.

want. And so it's a great time of reassess. Again, a lot of people get scared of it because they think, well, I'm making this other big change.

as well make this change too. And they don't realize that the change can happen still in the relationship, not leave the relationship.

@5:16 - Meg Trucano 

Yeah. I've noticed that too, that people will, you know, I'll work with a client, for instance, and we'll get into, you know, okay, I want to change my job.

And then it's sort of a domino effect of like, well, that really highlights the need for change in these other areas.

relationships is often one of those areas. And I'm glad to hear you say, and I'm sure many listeners are happy to hear you say that just because you're questioning where a relationship sort of sits and some of the details and questioning what you want out of it doesn't mean that it's like the death knell for your relationship.

@5:54 - Katie Rössler

Right. Right. If you think about it, when you were 10 years old versus when you were 20 years old,

parts of you that I really fell in love with have shifted and I don't know if I like it.

That's okay. That's okay. But if we don't keep our finger on the pulse of how is our relationship growing and how are we growing with it together leaning in towards each other versus avoiding and pulling away and procrastinating on conversations, that is when it starts to get scary.

I think that's when we go, I don't know how to approach this. And you know, if you're like me, your parents divorced.

So you didn't really have a great model for how to ask those questions and find each other again versus ask those questions and go, nope, I'm going to go elsewhere and leave.

@7:44 - Meg Trucano 

So what are some of those key questions that people who find themselves in this, okay, we've changed. Let's figure this out.

Can they ask themselves to clarify what they truly want from a relationship?

@7:59 - Katie Rössler

So the key is, visit to I want. What are my goals? What is my vision? Even if you've had viewers with your partner, you have to stop and figure it out for yourself because often what we're looking for and we're kind of using the distractor is the relationship and our unhappiness and that.

And it's often the mirror of what's happening internally. Like, I'm not really happy. I don't know what it is I want or I'm scared to ask for it or I've been so, you know, giving to everyone else in my life that I'm not even in touch with what it is I want.

So that's where I start the work with those types of clients who are like questioning my relationship and I'm like, good, what is it that you want?

And they're like, don't really know, I know what I don't want. Great. can start there. But what is your vision for the next decade?

And that can be overwhelming and scary to think right when change is coming. It's like, we've kind of fight it and we'd rather point the

finger and scapegoat something else is the problem rather than I just don't know when I'm kind of scared or I'm scared my dream is too big and my partner won't want to follow so it's just much easier to say I'm not happy they're the problem you know there's no way I could do this with them so that's where I would start is really what is it you want and whether you do a vision word for it whether you journal whether you do guided meditations whatever your way is you need to be really clear on what that is and then the second question is are you being the best version of yourself in your relationship so that if you walked away you could say I really know that like I showed up as the person I want to be in any relationship I'm in and I would say 99.9% of us would be like no I wasn't for whatever reason because of them right we point the finger again

you'll find a lot of people in a certain time in life start to have the identity shifts, right? And they'll be like, actually, I'm more interested in men or women or, you know, I want to be poly or I like, they'll have these shifts happen.

And if their partner's values don't align with that, they're not comfortable with that. That's okay. Like that's, you know, so there's a big piece of when we start to change, a partner may not be able to change with us.

And it isn't about them that the relationship has failed. It's just a different growth process.

@11:39 - Meg Trucano 

I love that. I love that perspective on it. And to kind of mirror some of the process is that your clients go through and as we kind of experience change in our relationships, also, I think reflected in other areas of change as well.

this idea of really the tapping into what we want in a relationship for ourselves is so hard for so many people to acknowledge, right?

So I've had a handful of clients who, for instance, have wanted to make a career shift and they know in the deepest depths of their heart that they just want to be an author, they just want to write.

But they, you know, our culture is not super supportive of that as like an income generating activity and you hear all these stories about the starving artist and that kind of thing.

And so it takes a lot of introspection and a lot of mirroring and a lot of honestly courage to be able to see bring up what you want and to acknowledge it and then to pursue it.

And I think that's really at the heart of any change work is that unwavering authenticity, right?

@14:00 - Katie Rössler

I balloon and how dare you right and like oh it just brings everything down and it reaffirms for us.

My partner doesn't support me See maybe I wasn't so right in my goals. Maybe or we get into that rebellious.

Well now I'm going to do it And it's like well It shouldn't be because they support you if you do that goal like it's because you want to So be careful that when you have this dream or this goal.

Yes, your partner Can be a supporter, but they may that may not be their like normal choice Like so I live in germany.

I'm american I am a maximizer about a lot of things Germans tend to be a little bit of a minimizer about things and it meet you with a lot of critical judgment and like and really they They're very technical thinking not all of them, but many of like I want to understand I want to understand.

I want to know the logic behind it. I want to know all the steps it will take How long will it take you know all of the things and the more I get

questions, and I find Americans have this, more Americans get questioned. like, we get flustered and like, just jump on the dream with me, right?

American dream. like, we're in it. Let's just be excited about it, right? And we just feel like, and that's been a big lesson for me is I don't come to my husband or my German friends or my German family here without being really sure and understanding my why, what my idea is.

And being secure and going when they ask questions, I don't have answers to go, I don't know yet. But once I figure that I'll let you know, instead of feeling like you don't support me, you don't care, because the real thing is, do I support myself?

Do I care about the dream and the idea? Is this something I want for my life? is it still so fresh that I'm not sure?

And if so, I always say like, have those one or two like tribe members and your you know group or online or wherever that can be like this sounds amazing and can lovingly ask you those questions like okay so what do you think your next step will be and then you're like I don't know what I'm just going to celebrate this for the next 10 days because I'm just excited I've decided and that's fine and then when you really do feel secure you go to your partner and the funny thing is because this maximize our minimize our thing isn't just a one way street we always think it's like my partner never supports me I guarantee there's things they've come to you with with such an emotion or such a idea and you've minimized it without realizing it because it's just so easier for us to see how they deflate our balloon and not how we've deflated their balloon but I remember when I was first learning this concept and like you know dealing with it in my house this play out I was like oh crap I definitely do that to my husband it's usually about something

else that I don't see as important or as important as he does. And that was when I was like, you know, you see this with couples when you work with them, this dance, like a tennis match of like, well, up here, no, no, you need to come down here.

And like, let's, let's meet each other in the middle. So really know what your goals are, the change that you want, so that you can stand firm in it, because especially if it's changed in the relationship, your partner will probably kind of buck the system a bit and like push the boundary.

Like, are you sure this is what you want? I don't like this because change is uncomfortable. And autopilot is so much easier, but it is not a healthy relationship.

It's the plant and the closet again, right? that's not helping anything grow. So you do need to be secure and hey, I really want our communication to be better.

Hey, we need to rebuild trust or we need to respect each other, whatever it is, and stand in that, because

Their temper tantrum doesn't mean you have to shift. It's just their natural progression of figuring out, like, you're right.

don't like it either, but I don't really want to do the work. OK, I'll do the work. Like you just let them tantrum it out until they realize you're not moving.

@18:15 - Meg Trucano 

You're saying we're going to work on this. Yeah. OK, I love this idea of and, you know, I'm, I'm a parent of toddlers and you're a parent as well of slightly older children.

But it's the same idea in parenting, like, OK, you can have your feelings. You can have your tantrum, but like, this is, this is what we're going to be doing, right?

Or this is what I'm going to be doing. You can follow where you could not, but, and so I love that, that idea of balancing energy.

And when you come in up here, it's probably good to expect there to be like a little like, oh, oh, OK, like, let me take a minute to process and, and so I.

and giving that that expectation when you're going into these kinds of conversations is a really good baseline to have.

So something that I have noticed and I'm really curious about your take on this. So in my work with clients who are making big life changes and it could be really anything from careers to lifestyle to anything, they tend to experience a sort of gradual buildup of dissatisfaction before they realize that change is really necessary.

And it's like you just said autopilot is really easy and it's so easy to kind of just coast through life.

And that's when you get your partner comes in with an idea or wants to change something and you're like, but that's going to like inconvenience me or that's going to.

So when you have this gradual dissatisfaction that is sort of

@20:00 - Katie Rössler

blooming and then you get this shift into oh something really needs to change here do you find that sort of progression with relationships as well yes and and the best way to explain a healthy relationship looks like this connection then disconnection like you triggered me you said something I didn't sleep well last night I can't stand you whatever right like something happened and then repair which is the thing that you do to get in a better place to heal to forgive or just shift the energy and I mean we all know in a date that it can happen like 10 times that you go from like I love you so much I can't believe you just said that okay everything's fine like back into harmony again so that is normal no healthy relationship goes without the disconnection or disharmony time it is very normal do you think that's

@21:00 - Meg Trucano 

a misconception though. I think a lot there is a huge, there are a huge portion of people who think like oh I never fight with my husband or I never whatever and and actually that might bigger problem than they realize.

@21:13 - Katie Rössler

I worry about the couples who never fight with their partner because arguing, fighting that's you know but disagreement conflict is where we sharpen each other in good ways.

It's where we learn more about each other. It's where really growth can so there needs to be that. It doesn't have to be full on fighting to the level that maybe we spoke with our parents or like maybe we did past partners but often when I hear a couple say we don't argue that much, there's so much resentment, there's so much under the rug that's just been swept there over and over that I'm like guys we have to start talking about these issues because it's going to explode in really unhealthy ways if you don't.

So yes I think often people think, or a good relationship, it should just be easier. Things should just flow.

Like I hear a lot of that. Like it should just be easier. I feel like it should just flow better between us.

And I'm like, no, because you are you. And you come with your own identity and personality. And you are naturally going to find people who are a bit of like sandpaper until you do some healing work from your unfinished business from your childhood.

You're going to keep finding people that like, rub you a certain way so that this comes out. You need to work on it, right?

So there will always be determining. But here's the pattern I see when it's like, Mayday, Mayday, the ship is going down.

If you think of, go back to math class, right? So we have the X and the Y axis. And if we have a straight line, just a baseline, what we're going to see with that harmony, disharmony repair, is like a natural wave up and down going up and down, but still moving forward.

And one of the partners has a stronger wave up and down, not always even a balanced. And the other typically is a little bit less and maybe has a little more, you know, balanced to it, like it's pretty predictable.

So that will show up in couples. And what happens is usually the one who doesn't want to go to the therapy, who doesn't think that you need help, like, you know, we're fine, there's no problems, knows that eventually that when that dips down in the disharmony disconnection, it's gonna come back up.

So it's fine, like I can wait it out, even if it takes a couple of weeks, I can wait it out, you know, his mood will change, her mood will change, whatever, right?

But what happens is if that natural progression of going up and down, up and down, it's actually going on a down curve, like a slide going down.

That's danger zone, right? But I also say to people, if you're just saying straight baseline, that's danger too. Because the partner who has the higher ups and lows, when they're in a low and they feel like their partner has disconnected, doesn't care, isn't being supportive, won't go get support to learn better skills.

It's kind of a void in attachment all of a sudden, pulling away because it's like, oh, I don't want to deal with it.

The partner, when they go back up, who feels like, wow, you left me in my time of need, will start to realize they don't need their partner anymore.

They'll start to realize, you're not really there for me. And the highs don't outweigh the lows and how you act when I'm in that space.

So it's a danger zone. I always say, if the progression of your relationships going downhill or even side to side, made it like, let's just get used to the fort.

Let's just learn relationship skills. And I'm the first to say Therapy isn't for everyone, but relationship skill building is everyone needs to learn this.

There's a lot of communication skills We just don't naturally know and we're definitely not modeled for us and Shift everything like within weeks if you learn them So what I like to see and what I teach my clients is we want your natural oscillation up and down up and down Whoever's is higher and lower that's fine, we're harmony disharmony repair harmony disharmony repair And I want that line going upwards Right like a mountain.

I want you climbing up the mountain in a good way And you know when you look at change It's it is that spiral you go down and then you go up and then you go down and you go up and I see that when I work with couples That after a couple months, they'll be like whoa amazing progression and they're on a high and then something happens People are sick.

There's travel. There's holiday whatever and the low happens and they're like Crap you just went back to the your old way

you did this, like it's attacking, it's horrible, all that work was for nothing and I remind them, no, because the line's been going upwards.

So when you dropped down, it wasn't in the negative, we weren't, you know, minus Y, we were, we were still in the plus, right, right, back in math class, we were above zero and that bank, some people like who's the bank example, right, like you're still in the plus, you're not in the minus anymore, because low is going to happen, expect it, but realize and track the progress you need to see, we know how to repair things now, we know how to bump back up.

And so that's the pattern that I want to help create for couples, is for them to progress upwards and to expect the disharmony and to, for their nervous system, not to go into, oh my gosh, we're in, you know, minus 50 and it's awful and it's horrible.

it's like, no, actually you're not. you're in plus two, you're good. Like it just, it took a dip. Y'all aren't getting much sleep, the kids are waking you up at night, whatever it might be, and it's causing a season of struggle and, you know, being in survival mode, but your foundation is still strong.

And then all of a sudden you see that upswing again and they're like, well, you know, I was working with a couple the other day and I had to be very tough with one of the partners.

And I said, okay, in 24 hours, I want you to decide if you're staying or going. Is at this point the phase of the disharmony phase without any repair has been long enough that I'm even saying you've stepped out.

Like you're just checked out and what's the point? Your partner shouldn't have to go to this anymore. And sometimes you need somebody on the outside to call you out.

And within two weeks, less than two weeks, but two weeks was like really where the partner was like, whoa, you're back to where you were.

This is amazing. But that partner had to reassess. Why am I doing this? What's happening? What is my own personal stuff that's going on?

has nothing to do with the relationship that is playing out in the relationship. And then you saw that shift happen.

And we started creating a buffer for this will happen again, sick days will happen, travel will occur. How do we get you in a place that your personal depression, anxiety, whatever it might be, right?

Just those lows don't then become the reflection of how the marriage is doing, but can be something that you go, okay, I got to call my tribe, got to get my support in place, you know, got to talk to my doctor, I got to do these things.

I want to take care of and protect our identity as a relationship as I work on my identity.

@28:41 - Meg Trucano 

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that so much is the understanding that these, you know, I don't want to call them oscillation because they don't come back around.

But like these fluctuations rather are normal, but you have have to be mindful of the direction that you're going.

And that requires attention, that requires being in touch with what you want and being conscious of it. And I think when we get on autopilot in relationships, when we get on autopilot in our careers or really any other area, that's when I think a lot of people start to disconnect from, oh, actually, you know, there is a delight and a purpose for me to be in this relationship, in this career or whatever it is, right?

you lose touch with that when you're on autopilot, like you just can't connect with it in the same way.

So I'm wondering if you have any advice for someone who might be listening and wants to, like, wade in to this pool and start to learn some of these skills.

that you mentioned earlier, like the critical relationship skills. What are some of the skills that you think everybody should have in a relationship?

And if we don't have those and we feel like we need to work on them, where do we go to get those skills developed?

@30:16 - Katie Rössler

Yeah, I think one of the best skills that we all can develop is an awareness of what cycles are playing out in our relationship and how do they relate to our childhood.

And one of the best ways to do that is to, there's a variety of books out there that are wonderful, but to find a therapist who either does emago work or you could read the book Us by Terry Reel and that type of work makes you look at what cycles are playing out.

In fact, it's the first session I have with all my couples is let's Just an uncover as much as we can in this one session, which sounds awful, but the way I do it, it's like a worksheet.

So you're like, oh, it's answering questions. So da da da da. And then I reflect what is in that worksheet.

And they're like, okay, wow. But it allows you to go, ah, these are the things I'm pointing the finger at my partner for and blaming them for, but I actually have nothing to do with them because it could be the wall.

And I would still have this argument in fight because this is what I'm trained in. This is what I believe to be true when someone acts this way towards me.

It's when somebody speaks this way towards me. So I think that is a crucial thing. And, and you can, obviously, you can read the book.

There are great podcasts, episodes that that Terry Will has done, after Hendricks has done. But I think a key thing is for you to actually do that work, whether you do it individually or as a couple with someone who can call you out on your stuff.

So, for example, I had this wonderful couple I was working with, and I remember doing her worksheet, and the husband was like, you know, the one thing I really wanted from my childhood that I never got was tickets to a rock concert when I was like, I think it was like nine or ten.

And of course, you know, he thinks he's stumped me, like, haha, this is like the worst thing I wish I had received because my childhood was so great.

And I was like, oh, okay, well tell me about that, like tell me about this concert, like what band, you know, and just going into it.

And then he let it slip. Yeah, I was so frustrated because I felt like nobody took me seriously, and I was like, let's explore that.

So, when she doesn't take you seriously, you were spawned with, and I gave him all the things based off of just the story shared with me in this whole concert scenario that he kind of thought was like nothing.

And he, biggest eyes was like, yeah, that is my pattern. I was like, yeah, I bet there's more than just the tickets that there's a scenario that plays out if we don't take the time to lower our guard and go, yeah, I need to figure out what those things are because I'm blaming my partner.

And really, they have no that's not their job to meet my needs in that way. It's my job to figure that out.

That's often why people say, I feel like you don't respect me and you show me no respect. And then my first question then is, okay, tell me how you show yourself respect.

Tell me how you speak to yourself with respect and they're like, oh, well, I try but I can't. No, respect isn't something.

You either do it or you don't. And it's not influenced by others. So like, how are you respecting yourself every day?

We cannot expect other people to mirror what we want if we're not doing it for ourselves. So I would say that's the big thing.

The second thing I think is really crucial and is usually my second session with couples. is their arguing style.

Like, you really need to know your arguing style. And once you know that, how to improve it? How to shift it, because it's all driven by the fight, flight, response within us.

And once we know which one we go towards, then we start to understand our nervous system better in the context of any relationship.

What triggers us, and why we explode, why we pull in, why we ice the person over and like, you know, stone wall them, we start to better understand that.

And then we can shift that. Again, all of this is personal work. You hear this like, nothing about figure out your partner's this, tell your partner this.

I don't need you to improve your communication yet. I need you to figure out more about yourself. Because then the better communication can happen.

If I teach a couple better communication. And that's great. It'll last a couple weeks. But if I helped them shift and understand themselves better and understand their identity in the context of what they grew up with, their culture, their religious background, whatever it is, and then they can start to say, well, I don't want these belief systems anymore.

want to change these values. They start to shift that. communication naturally changes. And then any tool I give them, it's like, I mean, that's why the first couple months, when I work with couples, it's like this fast going up.

And I always warn them about midway point, about the three, four month mark, you're going to feel the dip.

And I just want to prepare you for it. And they're always surprised. And I'm like, I told you, I feel like I should say it every session, it's going to get bad.

@35:45 - Meg Trucano 

It's going to get bad. But I don't want to do that because I'm scared.

@35:49 - Katie Rössler

But it's not like it gets bad in quotations. It's like the check mark. I like, let's really check in.

Are we working on this? How do we feel about it? any of us know that like, I always, I work with a lot of athletes.

So it's like, you know, when you start training for something, it's like great in the beginning. And all of a sudden you get this like, I don't really want to get sick days vacation, we can't keep the schedule.

And then you like, lull, and then it's like, what's your why?

@36:20 - Meg Trucano 

And do you really want it?

@36:21 - Katie Rössler

then it comes bright back up. So the couples that I work with, I often have them really assess like, what are three of your core values and create a couple's mission statement, kind of like a business, you know, what mission statements we know are why, why are we doing this, why?

Because you've got to wake up each day, you're not always going to feel in love, you're not going to feel like you want to be in the relationship, but you've got to know why you're going to know you chose this.

And here is why. so that's the big thing. I think the first two things have to be about us knowing ourselves better, our partner, not, you know, we've watched reels of

and we're like, oh, he needs to listen to this, or she needs to read this, no, it's about you.

You knowing yourself better.

@37:09 - Meg Trucano 

Oh, I, so many things. And what you just said, I, I'm over here clapping silently. But first thing is, you know, my husband and I recently did the Imago and it was so fascinating how just spot and spot on the conclusions were, but the question that it asks you are very like benign, seeming questions like, tell me a time you're frustrated in childhood, tell me what you did when you did just like your your concert story.

So I wholly recommend that that work and with the therapists you're familiar with that because it's so enlightening and so helpful.

But also this emphasis on, okay, stop looking outside of yourself for the quote unquote answers, stop looking outside of yourself for validation, for permission, for all of these things, learn yourself, understand the narratives and the stories and the, you know, social conditioning, all of that, that are, are crafting your life without your conscious awareness.

And that's what I want people to understand about change is like, you actually do have the capacity and the power to change story.

You do not have to continue down this path if you don't want to. And, you know, I'm sure similar to you, it's like, well, this thing and that thing and this thing, it's nothing outside of you.

It is you owning and taking responsibility for where you are and making that initial step to move toward what you want.

@38:51 - Katie Rössler

And to forgive yourself, because often there's a feeling it's just so much easier to point the finger at them.

There's a narcissist, they're entitled. if they have whatever, you have to forgive yourself for choosing them, for getting in relationship with them, for for losing your voice, because it's often easy to go, well, they never listen to me, they never showed me respect.

But you had a part in allowing that to play out. And I know that sounds harsh. And I'm speaking from someone who's walked it and gone, yeah, wow, I really did give up my voice.

I really did give up these things. Not because my husband is anything negative, but because of the conditioning that I had, that I had to go, wait, what, what, what, why am I not speaking up on this thing I don't like?

Why am I giving in and going, yeah, sure, we'll do it your way. No. So we have to really forgive ourselves.

And that takes some anger work, that takes some grief work, that takes some honest conversations with ourselves. And we'd rather point the finger at the scapegoat of the problem.

All right, like, you know, it's because of this first. Instead of while I'm really angry at myself that I let it get this far, I'm really angry at myself, didn't speak up, that I didn't change things faster, and that piece, I think, is a hard pill to swallow.

It really is to take ownership for how we add into the problems that we're experiencing or feeling.

@40:24 - Meg Trucano 

Yeah, and that anger and that grief comes into play with people and their identity also. I'm finding so many parallels between changing a relationship and changing other areas of your life.

You have this, oh, I should be this, but I can't get there because of I should have done things differently.

Again, so many parallels between the two. So, you have written a book about grief, and I'm wondering if there are any parts of relationship transition and change that are shaped by grief.

grief is not something that we tend to think of as being relevant in relationships unless there's been a death or something like that.

Right. Can you explain a little bit about sort of the hidden, hidden role of grief?

@41:31 - Katie Rössler

Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote the book, The New Face of Grief, and it's specifically about hidden grief. Because grief actually, the definition is letting go of the way we thought life would or should go, and that experience of that, right?

And that includes when someone dies, when someone dies, you know, I thought they'd live forever. There's always that, like, little voice side of us of, like, they died too soon.

They shouldn't have gone. I thought they'd be here by this point or still be here. for this and that is the I thought life would look this way.

And we actually experienced grief throughout our lives in a variety of ways. So, you know, I shared growing up in a military family, moving all the time, like change was normal, change just how it was.

And I always had to uproot the roots I had planted for two to three years at a time. And that had grief with it that followed me throughout my life and shows up in ways where if I'm in one place for too long, I start to get uncomfortable.

And like, there's just like, something's not right because I've been conditioned a certain way. There was grief on my parents' divorce.

There was grief leaving, you know, to go to college and starting an identity on my own and being my own person, where there was still this feeling of like, who am I?

And I, you know, I don't feel like I belong at home, but I'm supposed to be here. we have this grief and adjustment process to it.

Um, in parenthood, I experienced a lot of grief and for a variety of reasons. And I think those who are parents know that feeling of I can't remember my kid to get older, but oh my gosh, they're growing up too fast.

And there's just this middle feeling of grief around like, Oh, like, or I'm not the parent I thought I would be or this isn't how parenthood was supposed to look or my child, you know, because of health issues, because whatever it might be that this isn't, you know, what I thought my child would be like.

hmm. And so we're faced with grief on a regular basis. And it was a big reason why I wanted to write the book was to help people understand that grief is normal and natural.

And we've all had touch points of it multiple times that our life, we were never taught how to recognize it and what to do with it.

So what it looks like in relationships is a lot of anger at each other and a lot of resentment.

And sometimes it does nothing to do with your partner, but it comes out on them because they're the safe person.

And we often hear that kids like they're really good at school, but then at home they're a terror because they feel safe.

The same in our relationship. We might have been really great at work, but we come home and we let out all the stuff we were feeling and experiencing.

If we're experiencing grief in our life for whatever reason, this career isn't going the way I thought it would or this move wasn't what I thought it would be.

And we're angry a lot and we have resentment. That's usually good sign there's grief work to be done. And for someone to take a moment to stop and that anger and go, am I grieving?

It's very unlikely that's going to happen because we're just so angry and it's just easier to point the finger.

You might also see like a nun. is to life, just disconnection, like detachment from feelings because they don't want to feel the grief, they don't want feel the sadness, they don't want to feel the anger or the fear, all the emotions that come with grief, right?

And so it's just this disconnection from anything and you find like, I don't really have enjoyment anymore. I don't have enjoyment in the relationship, like things just don't excite me like they used to.

I don't feel passion or happiness in this and that usually is something for me as well, like what grief work needs to be done.

I also find that couples who had fertility issues and never really did good healing work together, not just separately but together, there is always grief work that is impacting them and it plays out whether it be a wall between them or again the resentment that's holding those grudges or how they argue, trust, all of

that has been touched by that grief and they just haven't figured out how to grieve together so that they can move through even if it's 10, 15 years later so that they can really move through and go okay how do we come back together in this?

@46:16 - Meg Trucano 

When you said that about the fertility issues full transparency my husband and I had fertility issues when we were trying to create our family and it was without question the hardest on our marriage but also personally and for me I had a horrible time with it I'm very highly sensitive so all of the medical staff was just excruciating for me and we ended up stopping fertility treatments and pursuing adoption and that's how we became parents and so grateful for that journey but there was such grief and what I found really interesting and really

valuable was the adoption agency. We went through most of the people who are seeking to adopt children have had some touchpoint with infertility.

And they have like a little course and they're like, you need to acknowledge that you, there needs to be space for you to greet the fact that the way a family I'm doing air quotes, the way a family is usually made is just not possible for you and is not going to happen.

And this is going to be your avenue instead. And you know, we did that work as a couple and went through it and talked about it.

And so naically, I thought my, you know, my grief just had been dissipated. But here, oh, seven, eight, nine years later, and I'm just realizing these little pockets of reaction that I have to certain, you know, triggers is grief.

It is that resurgence of that. Well, , that didn't the way I wanted to at all and like I still have feelings about that and I still you know um those feelings are still valid and those feelings don't necessarily have anything to do with my kids and and you know how we became a family so I think I think this is such a beautiful um thing to highlight and I'm I'm I'm gonna definitely buy the book and I recommend that anyone listening who is interested in this do the same because you're right it is such a it is such an element and it's it's something that we only culturally have permission again in air quotes to experience when we have a loss like a big loss of something I remember when I had a huge animal lover I had a cat who died and I I was grieving hard and I remember feeling so ashamed

and that it took me longer than a day. This creature had been my companion for 16 years through boyfriends, through moves, through my parents' divorce.

I tried to go to work the following day and I just quit halfway through. I said, I got to take a PTO day because this is just rocking me to my core.

But I remember being so ashamed that I was not strong enough to be able to hold this just intense grief.

of course, as a human being, who has a human beings die, that can be obviously response as well. again, we have so much cultural messaging around grief.

So I think it's a really important thing to kind of separate from some of the rest of the things that might impact a relationship as being kind of its own, something to focus on and be aware of.

@49:56 - Katie Rössler

Yes, definitely.

@50:00 - Meg Trucano 

I always love to conclude our conversations here on Changeology with a question. You've answered it a little bit, but I'm going to tweak it to make it a little different.

So what advice would you have for someone who is considering making a huge life change to their relationship or to any other area of their life?

What is your advice for those people?

@50:28 - Katie Rössler

My advice is to definitely seek out support from a third party who doesn't know you, who is just there to listen and reflect.

That can be a therapist, that can be coached, that can be, you know, in your community, you know, is just like that wise person to go to.

And just speak it out loud, the things that you're questioning, the thoughts that you have, that's why you want it to be a safe non-judgment.

space and hear it reflected back to you and see how it hits. Like if it's like, yeah, that is what I'm thinking.

Yeah, that is what I'm feeling. And allow that person to reflect some insight as well so that you can again have that self-awareness of like, is this a change?

I'm really ready to stand firm in it because there'll be a lot of people who question you. And if we're talking about the change of leaving a relationship, you'll be hit with shame and guilt and on all sorts of different emotions where people want you to feel certain way or they need to know that the partner was so horrible because that's why you're leaving and it might be that the relationship was great.

But again, you've changed and you need something different. So have that person or people have whatever it looks like for you that you go to before you make the next step because they're going to give you and empower you to really go, I'm sure.

I'm sure of this decision. I know I don't know what's going to happen after. I think the decision, but like, I'm sure of this decision.

And if the decision is to stay, they're going to be able to say some things to think about and when you have that conversation with your partner about what you want to see change.

And that part can be hard, too. Neither will be easy, neither decision will be easy, but it's about knowing that it's somebody who's not going to try to persuade you one way or the other who's just going to sit with you, reflect, and give insight.

That's a huge thing to just have that space to do that. And then even if you don't decide to do anything for another six months to a year, you've had that privacy where nobody's going to bring it up and be like, well, did you decide?

What are you going to do? Like, nobody's going to bug you about it because you went to a special space.

I would say that is the biggest tool or our advice I could give is like just go seek out.

It can be for, you know, one call, one session. It doesn't have to be for longer than that, but just have that space to say the things you wish you could say out loud without hurting anybody's feelings or being judged or shamed or guilt.

And often when I talk with, you know, individuals who want to come and have this conversation about what to do or not, they're like, God, it just feels good to get it off my chest to say this and now that I've said it, this is what I realized, but all I did was sit there and listen.

I'll come in with a lot of reflection when they're ready, but we often have some of the answers for ourselves.

We're just talking ourselves out of them. Yep. If you know you're talking to somebody who's not going to talk you out of it, then you don't try to talk yourself out of it because you're like, okay, well, I don't really need to fight myself on this because you're not going to do it.

@54:00 - Meg Trucano 

It's a much more neutral space. I find that so many people that end up having an initial fit session, I don't know if you have those or not in your practice, but I usually have at least one Zoom conversation to make sure it's a good kind of energetic fit.

And so many people have never had, literally never had the experience of being in conversation with another person when it was just about them.

And if you think about that space and, you know, therapy is similar, coaching is definitely this way. few other kinds of, you know, if you're a religious, maybe you're a pastor, that kind of thing.

I'm not, so I don't really know. But when the space is just about you and giving you time to suss through some things, and again, speaking it out loud, speaking it into existence, that allows you.

to be able to piece together things in ways that, you know, it's just kind of rumbling in the background, you don't get a chance to do.

So I find that very interesting that people, people so often tell me, I've never had anything quite like this before, that even that very first fit conversation is totally transformative for them, because they're sharing what's on their their mind, their heart, their soul, whatever.

And yeah, I completely agree with that piece of advice to find the right support.

@55:36 - Katie Rössler

Definitely. So I do a 45 minute relationship game plan call, and it can be with your partner or without, and it really just looks at all the things, all the different areas and assesses, how is that?

Do you like it? Would you like it to change, right? And it's just be leading somebody through a series of exercises that gives them

more clarity about what they want and what they want the relationship to look like, what they need, and then from there kind of like what would be the action plan then?

Like, you know, sometimes it isn't to work with me because really the work that I do online is so much more coaching and teaching and mentorship than therapy, because again, like I said, therapy isn't for everybody, but I will teach you the skills and I'm going to hold you accountable to using them and I'm going to call you out.

I can see like I shared before I'll call you out when I can see you drop the ball and you're like, it was in your court and you dropped it, but that's more of what I find people need is to learn the skills rather than let's rehash the last 20 fights we had and the new fire that's burning because we had another fight yesterday.

no, great that you can put your fire somewhere else. You can go have a different therapist for that. What I do really is more like relationship strategy.

it's like, how do we get out of where we are at, how do we shift this? I can't do that if I just keep paying attention to every problem you bring in each week, we actually just have to start learning the skills and changing it.

it's hard to be like, it's a therapy session, because it's not, it's really like a best ways like strategy and like support.

And yeah, you feel like you've like learned a whole lot in 45 minutes or an hour and a half usually, but 45 minutes for the game plan call up just like, what would this look like to shift it?

And most people, like you said, they've never taken a moment to piece it together the way that when you have somebody like you and I on the outside to go, okay, hold on, I've heard you say this, let's put that together.

Does that make sense? And you're like, oh, no, actually doesn't. I'm gonna shift this like, okay, then we shift that, right?

That can be crucial.

@57:54 - Meg Trucano 

Oh my gosh, I love this idea of a 45 minute relationship strategy. love that idea. I know Oh, approximately 400 people who should give you a call and set up one of those appointments, but for those listening, you know, they might be walking their dog or listening on their lunch break, how can people find you if they're interested in learning more about your services and about your books and the podcast?

@58:18 - Katie Rössler

Yeah, so I'm heavily on Instagram, so that's just at kdotbrusler. You and it's really tools, literally almost every episode is tools of like, okay, let's work on this.

Are you conflict avoidance? How do we stop that? How do you know things like that? And then my website kdwressor.com, but if you want to do the relationship game call, I'll make sure Meg has in the show notes.

So you can just click on that and immediately book something, make it super easy.

@58:50 - Meg Trucano 

Oh, I love that. love the ease of this. And Katie, thank you so much for joining us today on Changeology.

It's been such an incredible conversation, very insightful, and I know our listeners are going to find it so similarly insightful and hopefully it can give a little bit more clarity into how relationship fits into change.

So thank you so much for joining me and thank you for listening. This has been Changeology and I'll see you in the next one.