The Power of Small Brave Acts: How Change Really Begins--with guest Jim Moorhead

The Power of Small Brave Acts: How Change Really Begins

In this episode of the Changeology podcast, I’m talking to Jim Moorhead—crisis advisor, keynote speaker, and author of The Instant Survivor: Right Ways to Respond When Things Go Wrong. Jim has navigated courtrooms, corporate disasters, and boardroom panic rooms, but today he’s here to talk about something far less glamorous and far more necessary: bravery. Specifically, the kind of bravery you can actually practice, in small, ordinary moments.

We unpack how bravery is built—not born—and why that matters when you’re trying to change your life, your leadership, or your sense of self. Bravery isn’t about the grand gesture or the big leap. It’s a discipline. A muscle. A habit you form by saying the honest thing, leaving the room you’re supposed to stay in, or choosing discomfort when it counts. Change requires that kind of practice…and most of us are wildly out of practice.

If you’ve ever waited to feel “ready” before making a move, or told yourself you’re just not brave like those people, this conversation is your permission slip to start smaller, and sooner.

In This Episode:

• Why bravery is not the absence of fear, but action in the face of it
• The cultural myths that keep women stuck in “being nice” instead of being brave
• How small acts of bravery can build your capacity to take bigger leaps
• Why rational decision-making alone won’t get you unstuck—and what self-reflection adds to the process
• Why small acts of bravery are like tiny rebellions against your own status quo
• How to build a culture of courage where everyone gets to take smart, supported risks
• The role of bravery in leadership, and how to create an organizational culture that invites courageous action
• A future-self exercise to help you make bolder decisions now

Connect with Jim: 

www.jimmoorhead.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmoorhead/

The REAL Change Kickstart is a 45-day 1:1 coaching intensive designed to help you:

• Identify the behaviors keeping you stuck
• Unlearn what is no longer serving you
• Create new patterns that align with what you truly want

Click here to get started.

Interested in longer-term support for making a significant change? You can apply to work with Meg here.

Want to learn more about the art, science, philosophy, and psychology of making significant life changes? Sign up HERE for my weekly newsletter and have the Changeology podcast delivered straight into your inbox!

Connect with Meg on--

LinkedIn

Instagram

Transcript

Jim Moorhead: Changeology Podcast 

@0:19 - Meg Trucano 

Welcome to the Changeology podcast, Jim. I'm so delighted to have you here.

@1:11 - Jim Moorhead

Well, Meg, I'm so pleased that you asked me, and it's a conversation I've been looking for, and particularly talking to you and your listeners.

@1:19 - Meg Trucano 

Well, we are really excited today to speak with you, and I'm excited for the audience to get a chance to hear from you because not only are you an extremely accomplished human being who's made kind of big changes of your own throughout your career, throughout your life, but also because we're going to be talking about your area of expertise and something that is so relevant to any kind of change, and that is bravery.

So, I can't wait to tuck into the discussion about bravery, but before we do, I'd love for you to share with the audience a little bit more about your professional background and how you came to work.

Where you are now, which is talking about the importance of bravery in cultivating enterprising change within organizations.

@2:10 - Jim Moorhead

Well, first of all, thank you for your really kind compliment. You know, I think my journey with bravery really came about when I started being a federal prosecutor.

Because I think like all of us, I didn't wake up one day and think, you know, let's be brave today.

It wasn't something that was talked about in my family or talked about in school. But to be an assistant U.S.

attorney, you have to be brave on a couple of fronts. Number one, you're in the courtroom and you're talking to judges and juries.

But more important, you are really being a guide to crime victims who oftentimes for the first time will be testifying in court.

So you are really encouraging and supporting them to be brave. That that is. Experience of bravery is something I've tried to carry through as a leader in various businesses in my own personal life.

Obviously, with some success, I fail, too, as we all do, right? We aren't fully brave all the time. But what I've seen, particularly in companies and with leaders, is that they understand that they need to be brave during a crisis.

And so, you know, and I've advised, you know, major companies on recalls, on data breaches, on criminal investigations, harassment scandals.

And they understand that they need to move quickly and to do and say the things that will satisfy their stakeholders.

But when it's over, they think, oh, my God, that was exhausting. We don't want to do that anymore. Jim, we like you, but we don't want to see you anymore.

And so they fall back to safe status quo. And I think we tend to do that in our.

@4:01 - Meg Trucano 

Yeah, absolutely. So what was it about the idea of bravery? And maybe this goes back to, as you say, your experience with people testifying in the courtroom, but what drew you to the idea of bravery?

@4:18 - Jim Moorhead

Well, I think one of the things that drew me to it was that the most kind of exciting and profound and deep moments in my life, I feel, have occurred when I'm brave.

And so that that recognition made me know that that's what made me personally, I think, a better person, a more connected person, a better leader, a better supporter of people in trouble.

Because, you know, that really is oftentimes a test of a great leader is how do they not just lead themselves, but lead others to feel.

@5:09 - Meg Trucano 

So what is your kind of operational definition of bravery? I know, you know, we kind of throw it around in everyday language, but is there a specific kind of definition or collection of behaviors that you like to use in terms of referring to bravery?

@5:27 - Jim Moorhead

Yeah, I think that bravery isn't taking action without fear. All of us are afraid. That's not some personal failing.

That's not unusual. I define bravery as taking action in the face of fear and uncertainty and change.

@5:48 - Meg Trucano 

Do you find that there is a contagious effect with bravery? So if a leader in an organization that you are working with...

It exhibits bravery in the face of something that they're afraid of. Do you find that that has an effect on the people watching them, or working with them?

@6:10 - Jim Moorhead

Yeah, bravery is magnetic. And I think we see that, you know, when we see a leader be brave, definitely, but when we see colleagues be brave, or when we read in the paper about strangers rushing into a burning car to pull out the driver.

Those are, you know, we want to be brave people. I think that's something that, early on, we haven't maybe, you know, processed it in a kind of analytical way.

But we know brave behavior, we see it, and we want to be like that. But there are so many things that can stand in the way.

You know, I love a quote from the writer John Le Carré who said, There are always a dozen good reasons for doing

@7:03 - Meg Trucano 

Yes, and those barriers, I think, are something that we'll get into a little bit later in this conversation, but first, can you talk to us about the decision to leave your successful career as a prosecutor and how bravery worked into that?

What was the process like? Did you, had you been practicing bravery or was it something that you all of a sudden felt a big compulsion to kind of make that brave decision?

@7:38 - Jim Moorhead

Yeah, you know, I'd like to think that my brave decision came to join the U.S. Attorney's Office because I was in a big Washington law firm and that would have been a successful career in and of itself.

But I had this desire to be in the courtroom myself and to be kind of first chair in the courtroom.

Other than being in the background, then actually leaving the U.S. Attorney's Office was something that people regularly did. Some were career prosecutors, but leaving there wasn't the, I think, a real act of bravery.

I think my biggest act of bravery came recently when I decided to leave practicing law, which I was in a big D.C.

law firm, and left to become full-time in crisis communications, and that was something that lawyers don't do every day, right?

They don't jump out of the law into a non-legal, you know, profession, and particularly it was challenging to do it.

probably took me five years to make that change, and I had to build my own credibility to have people see me as a crisis communicator, and I wrote a book about

How to move through professional and personal challenges, and so I would say that was the most recent big, brave step I took from a career standpoint.

@9:12 - Meg Trucano 

What about in other areas of your life?

@9:21 - Jim Moorhead

Well, I think the, you know, I think that the small little things we do every day are what are really a sign of bravery.

That's, you know, having the, you know, the honest conversation with a family member or with a friend or a colleague, it's putting out a problem that may be happening at work or, you know, may be happening under your roof.

And so I think the, you know, there's a great quote from one of our U.S. astronauts, Buzz Aldrin. He says that bravery is the gradual accumulation.

And he's really telling us that bravery is available to all of us. And that's true. That's an untapped capability, oftentimes.

But the practice of doing it regularly and being attuned to how you can be brave and how you feel being brave.

And also that sometimes you'll take some brave action and it'll be a mess up, right? That's part of the deal, too.

But I think it's being aware of bravery and thinking about bravery and looking for brave people and supporting other people being brave and asking for their support when you're seeking to be brave.

@10:43 - Meg Trucano 

Those are some of the key steps, I think, in building a brave life. So, I love this concept that you've mentioned, the gradual accumulation of discipline.

And this really kind of couches. It's kind Bravery as something that I think is antithetical to what a lot of people assume bravery.

So for instance, I coach a lot of clients who will take a look at someone doing something that they want to do, right?

And they're like, oh, that person is so brave. I'm just, I'm not brave like that. Or, you know, personally, when I quit my, you know, corporate research career to start my own full-time coaching practice, right?

I have a PhD. People do not, like you, people do not. Do that, right? Like that is not something that a lot of people do.

And people kept telling me that they really admired how brave I was. And as you mentioned before, I didn't feel brave at all.

I was scared. I was terrified. was, but I also knew that I wanted and needed to do it. So in retrospect, I do see kind of the bravery inherent in what I did.

And again, you did something very similar. I was, was, was, was, I I I I I I Why do you think it is that, that so many people believe that bravery is something that you're either born with or not?

@12:11 - Jim Moorhead

Well, one of the reasons I think that's true is because we don't have a discussion about bravery. It's not something that's talked about.

Our parents didn't pull us aside and say, you know, there's a lot of room between zero and a hundred, and I'm not expecting you to go jump out of airplanes or to fight battles or to be a first responder.

But I hope that, you know, parents and our colleagues in the future might say, know, bravery is a great path for us because it will lead us to do the things that make us better people and a better organization.

Because, you know, a lot of organizations, for example, they say we, we encourage everybody to be open and honest and innovative, but the, the path to doing that runs through bravery.

And so, The real thing I think people don't understand or don't, you know, think about is that it's the small steps that start the path to bravery.

And so if you can get support and encourage yourself, and that might be as simple as asking for help on something or offering to help someone else on an assignment.

To gently ask a question that suggests maybe there's a better way to do this. There's just so many ways to start easily into bravery without thinking, oh, my God, I have to do some something massive, because doing something massive will come actually much more easily once you build up that bravery capability.

@13:50 - Meg Trucano 

I love this new conception of what you're offering us, which is this kind of building the muscle of bravery.

, éctitement. So I'm a parent. I believe you're a parent.

@14:02 - Jim Moorhead

Right? Yes.

@14:03 - Meg Trucano 

Right. Are grown. Did you have any kind of bravery discussions with them?

@14:11 - Jim Moorhead

You know, I don't know if I use the word bravery, but I think we certainly have discussions about career choices because, you know, my daughter, for example, has, you know, followed an untraditional route.

She was in the intelligence community for seven years and then she went to business school. And then in her first year with a classmate, she started up a defense contracting company.

So I talked to her certainly along the way and encouraged and supported her bravery in doing those things. So I would say if I didn't use the term, I was encouraging the action.

And that's really. I think, you know, the key to bravery is it's not a spectator sport, right? It's not something you sit around in the chairs by the side of the pool.

You know, you get in the pool, you take small action.

@15:13 - Meg Trucano 

I've been thinking about how to, based on our previous conversations, how to introduce my toddlers to the idea of bravery and try to early introduce this concept of bravery.

And this idea of kind of doing what you think is right in spite of how uncomfortable it can make you, we're a little early developmentally for that stage, but it's something that you've put on my radar as being a really important component of changing the conversation around bravery and elevating it as a concept in our communities, right?

And I feel like this time that we are in right now— Is calling for a lot of bravery on individual level on a collective level.

But one of the things that in my practice, I noticed a lot, and I, I serve mainly women or people socialized as women, because they have received this cultural message, right, that being nice, is kind of paramount, like, if you're a woman, you have to be nice, right.

And often, this directive, right, comes at the cost of what you want, right, what the person, what the woman wants.

So, have you seen something similar in being nice, being a barrier to bravery, of accessing that, what you want, or what you believe is right, for the sake of being nice?

@16:54 - Jim Moorhead

Yes, definitely. Because there's a, there's kind of a culture. Yes. Right now, and I call it a kindergarten culture, which is, you know, be nice, be kind, share, cooperate, don't disagree, don't hurt anyone's feelings.

But being nice is not a path to progress. And by the way, I mean, being nice, fine, but that's not going to transform you.

That's not going to build deeper relationships. That's not going to build honest relationships. That's certainly not going to create a culture that is open and honest and invites new ideas and invites people pointing out problems and throws their arms around people who take big steps and fail.

So, yes, I think it's so important, I think, to be nice in life, but recognize that's not enough. That's not what's going to enlarge you as a person and as a leader.

@17:59 - Meg Trucano 

you. Mm hmm. You said something there about bravery, brave actions, and then subsequent failure. How important is it in leadership for parents, for people who are just trying to cultivate a bravery practice for themselves?

What is the relationship between bravery and failure?

@18:24 - Jim Moorhead

Okay, so we all have risk on our brain, and sometimes people get mixed up about bravery. They think, okay, bravery means taking wild and crazy risks.

That's actually called reckless and stupid, right? So bravery is taking positive action, which will advance you and your colleagues and your organization and make you feel more proud and excited to come to work.

And so successful bravery is always... Calibrating, risk, and reward. And that's really the key. It's thoughtful. It's analytical. It has a wide-angle view.

That's bravery at its best.

@19:19 - Meg Trucano 

Interesting. Okay. One of the things, I'm hoping to get a little bit of a juicy conversation and perspective on this because I see this a lot in clients where you talked about bravery being kind of at the intersection of thoughtful, analytical, rational decision-making.

I find a lot of clients get stuck there. They get stuck in kind of this over-rationalization. I think they have a misconception that there is a right path forward, and they just have to find it, and then they'll feel brave enough to take the action.

But so often, they're... data, and they're asking around, and they're trying to find, you know, the pros and cons list gets really long, and then they just, they find themselves just completely overwhelmed with, with information.

Where does bravery come in there? How can we bring in bravery into that conversation when someone feels really stuck by their pros cons list?

@20:27 - Jim Moorhead

You know, it's a fantastic question, and I think where, and I love the point you're making, where I was going was to say, you know, Ray Bradbury, the writer said, we should throw ourselves off of cliffs and build a plane and wings on the way down.

Well, that seemed a little much to me. So I'm just saying to people, you know, careful on the cliffs and giving yourself a launch, okay?

And at the same time, I love your point, which is the, the natural. The central thing to do when we're facing big decisions is to turn it into a science project, and so we have spreadsheets, and as you said, plus minuses, and we divide the page in half and, you know, sort things out, and, you know, this is, you know, being brave really requires you to hold up the mirror to yourself, and so in big decisions in life, you really have to do your own examination to ask where am I?

Where do I want to go? What's the path to get there? I know it's going to be bumpy. I know it's going to require me to take steps I'm not used to, but if that's what I need to do in order to achieve what I want to and what makes sense for me personally, what aligns with who I am and my values and the, you know, deep, you know, self I can bring to the world, then .

Bravery is your path. Bravery invites you to take action, as I said, in the face of those fears and that uncertainty.

And the reason, as we talked about earlier, it's so important to start into bravery in small steps is because you don't want to be faced with the first time you're asked to be brave with the biggest decision you're making.

You won a long way to have said, OK, well, I tried bravery there. worked great. I tried it over here.

Didn't. Let's figure out why that didn't happen. But a lot of people think they can tack, tack bravery when they need it.

And that's a that's an iffy proposition.

@22:42 - Meg Trucano 

So I'm hearing you say that, yes, to the rational decision making to a point, but also that it's maybe more of an emotional of a self reckoning process.

So. How would you. Recommend, or if you have like some kind of small steps that people could potentially take right now, or within their daily lives that could help them kind of create this momentum toward the bravery that they're looking to have for those big decisions.

@23:23 - Jim Moorhead

Well, I meant holding up the mirror, but I think a key second step is to get support. Because there are people who know you, love you, have seen you in operation, who may understand you in a way better than you do yourself in terms of where you really shine, where you are true to yourself.

And I think, you know, in some ways, you know, as people are thinking about big professional decisions, I always like to ask, you know, what do you like to write about?

What do you like to read about? What do you like to hear about? What do you like to talk about?

with second and And we're about we're want everybody. What's deep within people so that they have an opportunity to express that, because oftentimes, you know, you find that they're not reading about, talking about, writing about what they care about.

They're often some place they never expected to be, and so they need to find their way back to themselves, and I think having support, someone like yourself, can help in that process, because having an outside-in view on yourself is really, really helpful.

@24:35 - Meg Trucano 

I could not have said it better myself, and to add on to that point about getting support, I think getting support is step one.

Getting the correct support is step two, because there are a lot of... People may know you, And I certainly have people like that.

coach can certainly help you look into the mirror, as you say, but people have their own agendas as well.

So keep that in mind if you're listening and you are finding it difficult to come to a place of clarity because of something someone else is saying to you.

And I think there's something that overlaps between your approach and what I do with my clients that I'd like to explore a little bit here, too, which is related to this turning inward and reclaiming the self as the generation point of your actions, right?

So in my intensive, I have this concept called small acts of rebellion, and they're a way for women to practice saying yes to themselves and saying no to.

you. you. The conditioning and the shoulds, right? So in your example, people often are performing work that they either don't care about or they accidentally stumbled upon.

And the things they really care about are over here, but they can't go there professionally because they, quote unquote, should make the best of their graduate degree, for example, right?

So you have a very similar concept, which is that small acts of bravery. And we talked a little bit about having tough conversations, about holding people and supporting people when they are making brave decisions.

But what are some other things that can help people build that muscle of bravery?

@26:51 - Jim Moorhead

Well, actually, and let me go back to one point you were making, which is excellent and kind of build on it.

You were talking about, be careful of the support you get because they're I think one thing to know is a recent study done by a couple of Harvard professors, Cass Sunstein and Richard Zeckhauser, and they found that we have a tendency to overestimate risks, a bias to doing that, leading to inaction, meaning that we're more hesitant and afraid to take action than is actually warranted.

And so if you're asking for support from other people, you have to understand they're probably coming with that bias in mind.

And if they're your parents and they poured money into helping you, you know, take your first career steps, they may be particularly thinking, oh, boy, what are you talking about?

Stay put, you know, wait until, you know, someone offers you huge money, huge new title, that's the right place for you, know, etc.

So yes, be careful on the support you seek. You know, I think the, I think the, you know, the important thing is to surround yourself, kind of create a surround sound world of bravery, so that you are looking around and saying, who do I admire?

Who is a brave person I admire? And why do I admire them? What are they doing that I can copy?

How can I learn from them? Then talk to actually raise the conversation of bravery, start to, you know, bring it up in conversations with friends, say, what do you, what do you think, you know, about bravery?

Do you think about being brave? Where have you been brave? How's it worked out for you? How did it make you feel?

Do that with friends at work. And, you know, they, I think people are interested by bravery, they may have misconceptions about it, but I think they will, you know, welcome the conversation.

And then, then the key, I think, is to really, you know, find a friend who can, you know, where you each can hold a chance.

Have you been brave this week? If so, great. How did it work out? How did you feel? What was the result?

And if you weren't, why not?

@29:11 - Meg Trucano 

What's going on? Hmm.

@29:14 - Jim Moorhead

So I think that, you know, we need to bring up the conversation about bravery. As you said, bravery is having a special moment right now.

We need brave people in organizations, up and down, you know, hospitals, law firms, you know, businesses and government. And so I think the more people who are thinking about bravery, focused on bravery, energizing their own bravery, activating their bravery, taking brave action, that will lead to a better world.

@29:48 - Meg Trucano 

I love that. I really love that. And I wish that for us collectively. What would you say, just as kind of a counter perspective?

Yeah. Talking about, you know, you tried to be brave, but you didn't. You didn't make the brave choice. How did that go?

And what did that look like? You know, I can think of several instances, actually, based on, you know, client work and, you know, friends and acquaintance is like where people make brave decisions for themselves.

That is a very brave decision for them to make that are kind of mischaracterized as being selfish or irrational from kind of the outside.

So, for instance, I'm thinking of the woman who decides to leave a loveless marriage or an unsatisfactory, you know, unsatisfactory marriage.

And she that was a very brave decision that she made for herself. And she gets described as destroying her family.

Right. So, what do you think we can do collectively to break down those misconceptions, but also, what can the person do if their bravery is misunderstood?

Like.

@31:02 - Jim Moorhead

You know, I wrote a book called The Instant Survivor, Right Ways to Respond When Things Go Wrong, and one of the people that I interviewed was Robin Roberts, the Good Morning America anchor, after she was diagnosed with cancer, and she said, for example, that a bunch of her colleagues advised her not to come back to work too quickly, to take it slowly, to, you know, be careful, listen to the doctors, and she said, I'm coming back to work, and what she said to me was, I live life for myself, and I think that's a fundamental view for people to have, which is, it is your life, and it's, you are, you are looking, you talked about earlier, to make good decisions, but they're your decisions, up the other

And you're the one who will live with them. You're the one who will decide whether you're proud of the action you've taken.

You're the one who will, you know, enjoy the benefits of your brave decisions. And, you know, if you made a bad decision, you'll, you we are very adaptable.

You will adjust and make a better decision next time. So, you know, I would hope that, you know, let's say in the case of someone leaving a marriage, how would we have any idea about whether that was really a good or bad decision?

And I'll give you an analogy. One of the things I've seen in the corporate world, you know, as a crisis expert, is that you will have a lot of folks who consider themselves crisis experts go on TV and talk about whether a company is handling a situation well or poorly.

And I never did that because. As I thought, you know, I'm not really equipped to judge. I don't know what's happening under the roof.

don't know enough of the facts. I can't come to a conclusion without that. And so I would, I would ask all of us to, you know, step back, live lives for ourselves, and let other people live lives for themselves.

@33:25 - Meg Trucano 

I love that advice. And certainly I think the biggest takeaway that I have gotten from this conversation with you about bravery is that idea of you are the one.

You are the one who knows if you're being brave. You are the one who gets to be proud of that decision.

And having that healthy regard for oneself as being a person of integrity and wanting to be brave, I think that is so, so, so critical, both in terms of, you

Establishing a bravery practice and moving towards the actions that you want to take to create that life that you live for yourself.

But also when it comes down to change, like looking down the road and seeing potential obstacles and knowing that you chose to approach those in a brave way.

And you can always look back on that and say, you know what, I did the best that I could with what I had.

I made a brave choice. Okay, it didn't work out great. But like, okay, we're just gonna try it again, or try something different.

So I love that, that idea that bravery is almost like a personal integrity, right? Like, you can show up with integrity in situations in the boardroom or in, you know, your family or culturally, socially.

But integrity with yourself is so important, too.

@34:57 - Jim Moorhead

Yeah, I love that. You know, the other thing. And that I hope people pick up is because I know that you've got a lot of ambitious people listening in.

And if you are to outperform as a leader, you have to be brave. It's not optional. You have to be brave.

And brave means that you are making difficult decisions and making hard choices. And they can be hard choices about who to hire and who to fire and who to promote and what direction to take your team or the group or the division, you know, whatever it is you lead.

And that's something that, to really do well, you want to share bravery. This isn't a situation where you're looking to say, oh, I'm just going to be the brave one here and let everyone follow me.

Now, you want to create a team culture of shared bravery, where... Everyone's brave acts are honored, and you throw your arms around people who fail.

But you bring up bravery and have the conversation and ask people about their own experience with bravery and when they've been brave recently.

That is how you then support people to be brave, make mistakes, but lead to a better place.

@36:27 - Meg Trucano 

I really love that. And as I think back on my corporate career, I remember one time my supervisor at the time, brand new, she had just come in maybe a couple of weeks before, and I had been working on a proposal, and we were working with a subcontractor trying to get everything figured out, who's going to do what work, what each of us was going to bid on, who the experts were, it's a whole thing.

And she's like a very She powerful woman and a very sharp mind. And I was very intimidated by her.

But we were having a conversation with our subcontractors. And of course, we're on this side of the microphone. They're on that side of the microphone.

This was before COVID. So we were just talking with them on the phone. And we kind of kept looking at each other like, who isn't going the way we thought or the way we want?

So we kind of cut the conversation off with our subcontractors. And we wanted to sort of regroup. And she turned to me and she asked me what I thought.

And in my head, I was thinking, well, I think this is trash. Like this is not how this is not what we set out to do.

Like this is not what we offered them. And they're trying to, you know, they're trying to take more, of course, their business, they're trying to take more of the work, they're trying to get paid more, whatever, but they're doing it in a way that doesn't sit well.

With me. But that moment, I'll remember. As one of the bigger moments where I chose to exercise bravery because I thought, you know, if I say, oh, I don't know, I think, you know, and kind of cow and kind of hide my own perspective on it, then she might just be, you know, she'll take what she thought about it and she'll make a great decision because she's a great leader and she's got a brilliant mind and all of this.

Or I could tell her what I actually thought, which is that they're overstepping and I think that we need to be firmer in our treatment of this contract.

You know, maybe, maybe it will provide something useful, maybe it will change the outcome. And I chose to share with her that perspective.

And to this day, it's something that she remembers and she said, you know, I, I didn't know who you were, you were several levels beneath me in the hierarchy and here you were, I asked you what.

You told me exactly what you thought. And in the moment, it kind of was a gut decision of like, I don't really have anything to lose here.

She might think I'm like a little, whatever, stupid or, or inexperienced or any of the things that you fear people will think about you when you speak up and make a brave decision.

But none of that happened. And actually, she ended up respecting me much more because of it. And I think a big part of that decision for me to go ahead and share with her what I actually thought was because she made me feel safe.

She made me feel like, and she asked me what I thought. Here's this like senior VP of this company asking me what me, a lowly researcher, thought of this big, big project that we were betting on.

So, um, I think bravery in leadership is so important. And I think as you've noted, it shows up in kind of the least, I'm making air quotes here, in kind of the least expected places.

That's where it really has its greatest impact, is in the small discussions.

@40:18 - Jim Moorhead

Well, first of all, I love that story. Second, I'm sure you weren't a lowly researcher. The other point I'd make is that she's a wonderful leader because she has opened up a conversation.

She could have jumped in with her own opinion and said, what does anybody else think? But that's a way to shut down the conversation because then people go, well, if she thinks that, then I think that too.

But by opening up the conversation, she, as you said, supports you and invites you to be brave and say what's on your mind and offer your opinion.

And, you know, just to, to stay with that for a moment, because I think it's a. See you later.

is I'll You You you. It's a kind of picture of the dynamics of bravery within an organization, and just a quick story, I was early on at a company, and the chair said, can you jump into a difficult client situation and repair it?

And so I said, fine. So I got involved in this and quickly figured out the leader of our client was kind of a tyrant and was abusive to more junior staff.

And I mentioned to this executive that we paid attention to not just the what of our work, but the how it happened and how our clients treated us.

I had to go back to the chair and say, we need to wrap this up, I can't fix this relationship, we need to end it, and she understood it and agreed with me, and we

Did. And what was so important about that was that the more junior people felt so supported and so honored and so recognized and valued.

And that's something I think is so important to be aware of as a leader. People you're working with want you to be brave.

They are looking for you to be brave. They will support you and rally around you and be, you know, give you bigger space to be brave.

And then, as you talked about early on, bravery is magnetic. And if they see you being brave and stepping forward, that gives them the comfort and the space and the support and the safety to be brave, too.

@42:51 - Meg Trucano 

Yes. Yes, I love that. And, you know, I think back, of course, I have I make brave. In my current career as well, like starting this podcast was a huge act of bravery, because I, I didn't know what I was doing.

But, you know, when I think back into my corporate career, some of the bravest decisions that I ever made were very permission giving to other people in my work circles to my, you know, the people that I managed.

And remember one of the, one of the times where I had a lot of deep, focused work that I needed to do in a very short amount of time, it was probably a proposal.

And I declined a development meeting, right, that I was expected to go to because I was of a certain level and whatnot.

And I declined it because I needed that time to focus on, on this time sensitive work. And I straight up told the meeting organizers, like, I'm not gonna make it to this meeting.

I will absolutely follow up with you after to get whatever I need to do. Marching race, whatever it is, but I need to focus on this.

And, and, and she was like, Okay, yeah, that's fine. And then I had, I must have had 15 people ask me like, Oh, my, did you really just did you hear right?

@44:12 - Jim Moorhead

Did you say no to that meeting? And I'm, yeah, I did.

@44:17 - Meg Trucano 

And I, I got, got the deep thinking time and space that I needed to do. Pretty soon, it started this.

I don't, I don't want to call it a movement, but like this real evaluation of whether a meeting was actually necessary and who actually needed to be there.

And it gave people permission to that and to prioritize and set value on their own work. Even when there's an expectation that they need to be at a specific meeting, right?

And I mean, meetings are different, right? But internal meetings. And so anyway, that's just a small, a very small thing that, you know, had, of these call the

@45:02 - Jim Moorhead

I love that because, you know, I think about bravery as setting off fireworks in the sky and illuminating what's happening on the ground.

A lot of times we operate in darkness and things get carried forward because that's been the routine, habit, the practice.

And so what you did in that situation was you put a firework in the sky and you illuminated for people that maybe all these meetings didn't make sense and maybe everybody didn't need to be part of all these meetings and to really have people step back with that new light shining and think, you know, maybe there's a better way to do this.

So that's something I'd ask people to keep in mind. Think of what firework you could set off that will, you know, bring light and bring sometimes warmth.

now. to to a situation around you.

@46:02 - Meg Trucano 

Oh, I love that. That's such a beautiful mental image. I love that very much. Okay, can I go but can I go back to your children for a second?

Of course.

@46:12 - Jim Moorhead

Yeah. So I love you thinking about okay, so how do I start the kind of bravery conversation with them?

And, you know, I think, you know, I'm sure you're reading to them, and you're seeing brave characters in books.

And I think that's a great, you know, launchpad to start talking about, well, what are they doing there? How does that seem to you?

How would you feel doing the same kind of thing? You know, just all those kind of open ended questions, because I think that the, you know, I think a lot of us grow up with the idea that we want to be brave.

We want to, you know, do the brave things and make the hard Decisions and lead people. And then it just gets eroded over time, right, by being forced into boxes and forced into I shoulds, as you talked about, and, you know, roofs put closely over our head.

And so I think you want to foster bravery early and you want to foster small, brave actions and appreciation for bravery.

And I think that would be a great gift to your children.

@47:30 - Meg Trucano 

I'm absolutely going to do that. I have several books in mind that we can start with tonight, as a matter of fact.

Great, great advice. And thank you very much for this detailed, in-depth discussion about bravery. But now it's time for some rapid fire questions.

So this is just off the cuff, your gut response to this question.

@47:55 - Jim Moorhead

I will work to be brave.

@47:56 - Meg Trucano 

Be brave.

@47:58 - Jim Moorhead

Be brave, Jim.

@48:00 - Meg Trucano 

Okay. So if you could go back and say something to the previous version of yourself during the moment, or a moment, that you felt the least brave, what would you say to yourself?

@48:19 - Jim Moorhead

I would say, look inside yourself. And what I mean by that is, look closely at who you are, look closely at what you care about, look closely at what you believe in, look closely at who you admire, look closely at the values that you hold dear.

You know, whether it's duty, or acting with integrity, or being kind, or, you know, building a positive story of progress.

Because I think... In some ways, that's what we all want to do for ourselves and for the organizations that we're part of, that's what I would be focused on.

@49:09 - Meg Trucano 

I love that. Okay. Final question. What advice would you give to a listener who wants to change something about their life, but they feel stuck because they're afraid and they need to call on their bravery?

What advice do you have? Maybe it's the same advice.

@49:30 - Jim Moorhead

Well, I would ask them to, maybe you heard the phrase astral project. I would ask them to astral project themselves forward six months or a year and say, let's look at where I'll be then.

Let's look at what I'll be doing. And will I be proud of myself? And will I be proud of the choices that I made to lead up to where I am now?

And And what small step can I take right now to start to build that positive story of progress that will make me proud?

@50:11 - Meg Trucano 

Oh, that's such good advice. I love that. Thank you so much, Jim, for sharing with us your take on bravery, your expertise, your story.

For those who would like to connect with you and learn more about you, perhaps read your book, where can they find you?

@50:31 - Jim Moorhead

Sure. So, you know, my website is jimmoorhead.com. And, you know, I'm happy to have anyone, you know, email me, jim at jimmoorhead.com with any, you know, follow up questions about their bravery journey.

And by the way, Meg, appreciate it so much. Wow. A fantastic series of questions you've asked me and think the discussion has been really fun, but I hope also very useful.

@50:58 - Meg Trucano 

you very much. I think it has been. I think it has been. And the feeling is mutual. I loved talking with you.

So thank you again for joining me on this episode of Changeology and I'll see you on the next one.

Perfect. Look forward to it. Thanks so much. See you, Meg. Bye-bye.